Over the past few years, Kickstarter has emerged as the primary entry point for small, independent game makers and publishers. However, even though countless first-timers have found success on Kickstarter, many abandon their dreams of self-publishing after their first campaign – but not all.

League member Eduardo Baraf, and friend-of-the-League Dennis Hoyle have stuck with publishing. Through sustained work, they are keeping their indy publishing dreams alive. Their small companies: Pencil First Games (Ed), and Bellwether Games (Dennis), are continuing to work on bringing new, innovative games to market, and both are currently running Kickstarters.

We sat down with Ed and Dennis to discuss their thoughts on Kickstarter, independent publishing, and tabletop games, with a focus on their latest projects:

Heroes and Tricks, —Pencil First Games’ 4th Kickstarter

Princess and the Goblin, —Bellwether Games 3rd Kickstarter

THE INTERVIEW

SO GUYS, WHAT’S IT LIKE TO BE ON YOUR 4TH AND 3RD KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGNS? STILL GETTING BUTTERFLIES? OR IS IT FINALLY BECOMING OLD HAT?

Dennis: It feels great! I love getting an opportunity to introduce the games I’ve been working on to people from around the world, and even though I’ve already done it twice before, that doesn’t make it any less exciting. So, the butterflies are still there and it is definitely not “old hat”. One thing I will say, though, is that it really helps to have the experience of doing it before. Even though there is still uncertainty about what is going to happen, I’ve learned a lot from my past two projects and I feel a lot more confident in the decisions I’m making for the campaign.

Ed: Man…without a doubt I’m as nervous about my latest campaign as I was my first (possibly more). No matter how much you prepare, the response you are getting, the articles you’ve lined up – you just never know how it is going to go. Having said that, the process of prepping for the campaign is a lot more streamlined. Setting up a KS page, getting a reviewer, getting quotes, etc. are rote at this point.

HOW HAS KICKSTARTER AND YOUR PROCESS CHANGED OVER THE YEARS?

Ed: Overall, the KS platform has improved. It has been slow coming, but the website, tools, and dashboards are all more creator friendly. At the same time, KS is increasingly crowded. I don’t remember the exact number, but when I launched GemPacked Cards more than 2 dozen games launched on the same day! My process is much the same – stay organized and try my best to be prepared.

Dennis: Honestly, my process hasn’t changed that much since the first campaign I ran (Antidote) in 2014 except that I’m getting better at planning out every step in advance. Going into the Antidote campaign I really had no idea how long it was going to take to get the files prepped, go to production, ship the games overseas and then out to backers. We were about 4 months late on that one (ouch). Then, after delivering my second campaign (Swamped) about a month late, I sat down and counted every week in the process for both campaigns to get a more objective look at how long each step really takes. So, for the Princess and the Goblin, I am a lot more confident with my delivery schedule.

YOU BOTH HAVE THREE GAMES ON THE MARKET, ARE YOU MAKING BUCKETS OF MONEY? IS THIS YOUR FULL TIME GIG?

Dennis: Uhm, buckets of money? No, but this recently became my full-time gig. I’ve been very fortunate that Antidote and Swamped are selling well in distribution, which provides a somewhat steady (albeit small) cash flow. My third (and earliest) game, Drop Site, which we didn’t run a Kickstarter for, is not in distribution and doesn’t bring in much. I’m mainly able to be full-time because of the loving and patient support of my wife, and hope I can continue to do this full-time into the distant future.

Ed: Nope! I’m still working a full time job while continuing the creator / indie publisher thing. While I can happily say that all of my titles have sold out or are on track to sell out, none of them have become “hits.” Generally speaking, after covering costs and splitting revenue with my team, each game has only really put out enough money to help fund development and the KS launch of the next. One day I hope to have a title that drives regular reprints, but even then I don’t think I’ll ever make a step beyond dedicated hobbyists. I have yet to pull a personal payment out of the company (though it does pay for convention trips!).

WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR A KICKSTARTER GAME CREATOR WHO WANTS TO CONTINUE USING KICKSTARTER, BUT IS STRUGGLING WITH THE LOGISTICS?

Ed: I’ve included a lot of my advice in my League Videos (link to playlist), but if you are struggling a key is to understand what your passion and what your skillset is. Struggling is ok, but don’t struggle because you are doing something someone else could be doing better, faster, and with less stress. Find help in areas you are weak and emphasis your strengths.

Dennis: Interesting question. I think this type of advice would need to be case by case since we all utilize different practices and solutions for logistics, but one piece of advice I might give would be to not be afraid to reach out to companies who you think could make your logistic life easier. If you’re not sure what companies to contact, ask the community for help. I use RIM Logistics for getting games from China to the US and Asendia USA for fulfilling rewards to backers. I’ve been happy with both and could pass along names of people to contact.

HAVE YOU HAD ANY CHANCES TO WORK WITH BIG PUBLISHERS WHILE INDEPENDENT? DID YOU OR DIDN’T YOU?

Dennis: Not yet! I’ve had a few opportunities to license Antidote and Swamped to some international companies, but never struck a deal.

Ed: Through building a presence in the board game community, and in particular doing my review/league channel, I’ve been able to develop relationships with many of the small-medium publishers a few bigger folk. Over the course of the years I’ve had chances to have publishers pick up Lift Off!, GemPacked Cards, and The Siblings Trouble but ultimately backed out of the deals for one reason or another. I started Pencil First Games after my time at Disney and a key part of it was to create my own IP and Business. I just haven’t found the right fit yet.

HOW DO YOU THINK OF YOUR COMPANY? HOW DO YOU PLAN ON GROWING IT? WHAT’S NEXT?

Ed: As I said earlier, Pencil First Games is still mostly a labor of love and hobby for me. Over the last year, I’ve continued to expand my product lines and review channel, but I don’t see myself leaving my full time job or hiring a team. I expect I’ll continue to run two Kickstarters a year and relish the opportunity to make games with great people and bring them to market for gamers to enjoy.

Dennis: Bellwether Games just celebrated its 5th anniversary in early May, so in some respects I feel like we’ve been around a while, but for the majority of that time I wasn’t really doing publishing work, just watching, reading, learning and trying to sell my first game. It wasn’t until Antidote that I finally published a game on my own, but recently I’ve been doing a lot of work to make Bellwether Games a legitimate “stage 2 indy” brand, which is culminating in four new projects before the end of 2016. Princess and the Goblin is the first of those, which is a puzzle/memory race game based on the classic story by George MacDonald. The second is a game about an Irish fishing tournament called Coldwater Crown from Paradox designer Brian Suhre. It’s a really brilliant and fresh look at worker placement and it will feature art from the amazing Beth Sobel. Then, I’ll be doing a really fun title called Windup War that was in the top 10 at Stonemaier Games design day back in 2015, and I’ll round out 2016 with the Antidote: Lab Alliance expansion. Going full-time has really given me the opportunity to expand my product line-up and I’m incredibly excited about each of these. I’ve also gotten a lot more familiar and comfortable with picking-up games from other designers and have begun actively searching for more projects to publish.